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RURC
03-15-2005, 03:41 AM
Much thanks to BitHed for the word on this forum. We gonna set this place on fire. Burn *(&^((& %$#^%$ Burn. Back to the subject at hand.

I am trying to gauge if there is a desire for a product. I am not selling anything at this time. If it comes to that, this will shift from this forum to a trade area.

Lithium Polymer batteries. I know you are thinking oh God another person gonna bash the NiCad and NiMH. WRONG. We all have our place in this world. (Mine just happens to be on the beach looking out over the Gulf of Mexico from the 3rd floor balcony.) Here is what I am working the kinks out of. LiPo battery packs for the H8. Yes serious saddle packs for the H8. I am working on several different setups from 1850 maH to the amazing 4000maH. All will only come with Deans connectors and 14 gauge wires. Do not make a adapter for your speed controller. This is not your mommas battery pack. They will be shrink wrapped and have a foam rubber insulator in them. This set up is not limited to the brushless people. If you want 1 to 2 hours of run time on a charge this is the place to be. I am still trying to gauge the want for this product. So if you might be interested leave a line here. If you have a question, leave it here. If you want fries with your burger, go to Mickey Dees. Now for you BL guys you can get it in 11.1 and 14.8 volts. Remember the Mamba dose not like volts above 11.1. But the Mamba Maxx will not care (sinister laughing). As the prototypes reach a better looking phase, 5 to 6 days from now, I will post photos here. May the LiPo gods smile on you.


It appears that the 7.4 volt 1850maH packs will be in the range of $65 USD. They will be made in the USA. Florida to be exact. I need feedback so if there is a want I can get things going ASAP so I can deliver by or before the April 1 date of the H8

BitHed
03-15-2005, 04:19 AM
...RURC you lead and I will follow mate...I am new to the whole lipo setup...Hopefully you can answer many of our probable qustions...Good to have you here mate, thanks for coming...

halfEIGHT
03-15-2005, 12:01 PM
RURC, sounds awesome, I would imagine there will be a huge demand for these - let's face it, I can't see a single person taking that stock AA holder out of the box - the batteries are going to have to be everyone's first upgrade. Also, I'm pleased to see everyone standardizing around Deans Ultra, skipping right past any sort of micro connector. Tell me more about the 4AH, that's nuts! :D :cool:

Mazda787b
03-15-2005, 09:46 PM
Lithium in an 777 sound like a great idea, on the outside. But when you have more knowledge of the charistics of lithiums, you see how they won't be such a great idea. 2 cells in the layout that the 777 would need would make the car extreemely light. Now some arcue that's a good thing, but one cell epr side wouldn't be enough to keep it balanced. I run a 7.4v li-poly in my Mini-T. One is a Thunderpower, another is one from my estore. The problem is the batteries are to light, it creates a in-balance in the truck. Even with the dual disk slipper, it is hard to get the correct setup to get the power to the ground, and keep the front nose down. Imagne if you ran something like this in an RC18, and the weight distribution in it. One side would be lighter than the other, causing an ill-handling car.

Lithium-polymers have also shown to chemically deteroriate after about 2 years, regardless of use. Sure for bashing and "long runtimes" the lithiums seem to have an advantage, but for racing, a nimh or nicd cell is the way to go.

ruknd
03-15-2005, 10:26 PM
agreed, weight distrubution is crucial...especially on a buggy. I'd say use some weights in the pack to balance it...

Mazda787b
03-15-2005, 10:36 PM
True, but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of running lithium batteries, the vast savings in weight?

BitHed
03-15-2005, 10:49 PM
...again true but not if its hopping and bopping like MC Hammer on a sugar rush...wheels on the ground = power and acceleration, and steering...

...im with RUKND...weight the packs or weight the car...you can get those little weight slabs right ?...i guess they are lead...

Mazda787b
03-16-2005, 12:39 AM
True, but on contrary to popular belief, a good nimh cell can provide a higher discharge rate than a li-po. GP1100s can almost put out a 30A discharge rate. Sure, some lithiums can do this too, but not for under $30 per pack. Heck, for as much as you would pay for a lithium charger (MRC 969, Triton, Intellipeak Ice), you can buy 2 or 3 nimh packs, and a pirhana digital charger. You don't have to worry with over discharging or over charging with the nimh cells, and you know that your batteries can product the kind of power to keep your brushless motors from cogging.

RURC
03-16-2005, 03:42 AM
Mazda787b

I can assure you that I am well aware of the small limitations that Lithium's have. I have been running them for years. No issues no problems. I have for the last year been building custom packs. I have even been making formed packs for the military. Almost every problem with lithium's can be traced to the fault of the operator. Can they be dangerous YES. Can they catch fire YES. Could you get run over by a Hummer YES.

The batteries being too light is wrong. The lightness allow you to place the weight where you want it. If you balance your truck you will see a great performance increase. I build set ups for airplanes. You want to talk about changing balance check them out.

I do run them in my RC18T and with the receiver I use I have the exact balance as it did before and a tremendous savings in weight.

Remember the weight savings thing putting the weight where you want it makes all the difference. When I built my race cars ( I have 15 years with Porsche motorsports and 5 years in F1) the object was to come in as far below the min weight as possible. So the weight could be added, in the exact right spots to just bring you the the min weight. When was the last time you had to add weight to your car to meet weight. I never never came under weight and I have been racing RC for 10+ years.

I routinely build packs capable of continuous 40 amp draws and more. I just delivered one to one of my flyer friends that will hold 82 amps. None of my measurements are peak they are nominal.

Like I said in previous line most problems are related to the operator. As to the clam that they break down after 2 years I have not heard this. But I am aware of the polymeric digression from improper care from the , operator.

The cogging thing has more than one cause. It is generally found out the cogging is a result of gearing. Not LiPo batteries. As far as cogging caused by batteries the problem would generally be found with NiMH and NiCd. They drop off in voltage approximately 3 times faster than LiPo's. LiPo's hold 90% of voltage throughout the maH rating. Completely unlike the others.

Your buying 2 or 3 pack for the price of a charger. No one ever said it was going to be free. But I will gladly pay for the extra time running. I get almost 1 hour run times with a 2000 pack on my mini t. I have run my B4 for over 3 hours ( I finally got tired of driving and the battery had not slowed down) on one charge on a 8000 pack I made. Now extra time running means less time sitting and waiting for the other guy to give back the radio clip.

Now did I go and trash talk NiMH or NiCd. No I did not. I am giving this option because I know it is a higher performance option than those are. As with all changes or higher performance items they come with new positives and negatives. I will answer all questions and if you wish go to the molecular level to describe the issue. I will tell all positives and negatives I know and ones I have only heard of (the dreaded cogging being one of those I have only heard of because I understand both sides of the problem.

I really like your opinion and respect your ability to express it. I think we have given these people a lot to read. I know I have. Any questions please feel free to ask.

Mazda787b
03-16-2005, 07:08 PM
I have been running lithiums for a few years as well. It is not chargine/discharging that is the problem, it is the chemical makeup of the cells themselves.

The Mamba cogging issue was a result of the batteries not putting out the AMPS the motor needed.

I see nothing wrong with lithiums, infact I will endup making packs to run in my 777, but the lithium problem is the chemical makeup. Like I said, after two years, the packs will begin to chemically deteroriate, no matter how much you use or do not use them. That is why I think ROAR, and IFMAR have not allowed lithiums yet, is because of the problems they have chemically. Just like when the Sanyo 3000s came out about 7 years ago or so, most guys still ran the Nicd 2400s because of the problems they were having with the chemical makeup of the nimh cells. In a few years, though, lithiums will be the king of the battery industry.

Buy building these packs yourself, are you building them from scratch, or buying cells and making packs? Depending on what you have, I may want to buy a few packs from you.

I am glad that we have someone as knowledgeable than you on the boards Michael, I am sure we will all learn alot from you. I didn't mean to start an argument, but I am sure we will all be getting along.

BTW, you said you race Porsches and F1 cars, what do you have exactly? Email me or something, and we can talk cars. I live for Vintage race cars, we could possibly share opinions.

Rcdriver
03-16-2005, 07:32 PM
I have been thinking about getting a LiPo setup for my Emaxx for a while now. But I dont want a Chemical Disaster since I have no clue what to do with Lipos. I need the extra runtime since I barely have any patience waiting for my batts to charge. I have read extensively about the cogging of the Mamba on Yourmicro.com so I know if I get a Mamba setup for my Half 8, I would get a Lipo. I would like to get a setup so I am interested RURC. :)

RURC
03-16-2005, 10:52 PM
I have been running lithiums for a few years as well. It is not chargine/discharging that is the problem, it is the chemical makeup of the cells themselves.
The Mamba cogging issue was a result of the batteries not putting out the AMPS the motor needed.
Buy building these packs yourself, are you building them from scratch, or buying cells and making packs? Depending on what you have, I may want to buy a few packs from you.
BTW, you said you race Porsches and F1 cars, what do you have exactly? Email me or something, and we can talk cars. I live for Vintage race cars, we could possibly share opinions.

:D I have packs that are at least 4 years old and show no signs of problems. As I understand it the reported problems come from a chemical breakdown due to uneven charging of milticell packs. Look out for several chargers comming out soon that will have several plugs on them to use very special chargers that will evaluate each cell individually and properly condition each one as to its individual needs. The packs I make for myself are seperatable and theirfore I can charge each cell by itself. Due to the possability of antimatter contamination (some dummy shorting one out) I do not give those to others. If you do not allow the cells to drop below 3.2 V each this should not happen. This is how it was explained to me by a engineer at SAFT.


The cogging issue ( I have never seen and have not had to contend with) was explained to me by Shawn at CC. I was originally told that if I saw it to monitor voltage and amps. Then in a later conversation with Shawn I was told to watch out for over gearing. And that this was what he was seeing most. I will take his word for it. Again I have never had this happen to me. Having as of 10 minutes ago 5 mambas running in my personal cars and around 35 installed for friends should have seen this by now if it was a real serious problem. But I have not.

The packs that we build are very specialized and are sold only to the military because of cost. Around 1100 each. But that dose include the balancing and conditioning charger I mentioned previously. The packs are formed into the final product we deliver. The ones I will sell will come from individual cells that are bought and assembled into multipack packs by myself or another wacked out hobbiest.

Sorry did not mean to imply that I was a driver. Well I am but not at that level. Just used to do club driving. In any event I was a mechanical engineer at the Porsche motorsport complex. I did travel the Porsche Cup circuit and participated in the GT1 series. In F1 I designed brake systems and was fluid dynamics specialist. I worked for several teams but non of the real big boys like MCL, Willams, or Ferarri. I did work for TWR, Footwork, Jordan and the other back markers. I do apolgize for the misunderstanding. When I said my cars, what I was refeering to was the fact that when you build something it is always yours if you understand what I mean. To this day if I see one of the cars I helped design and build I call it my car. It is just a passion for them. I think of them like my childeren. Mabe I need counseling on this.

I am sorry that you do not feel that we can learn from each other. I feel that I can learn from anyone. There is always someone that knows something or even has a different aspect that I did not think of. In any event it is good to meet you. :D

RURC
03-16-2005, 11:03 PM
I have been thinking about getting a LiPo setup for my Emaxx for a while now. But I dont want a Chemical Disaster since I have no clue what to do with Lipos. I need the extra runtime since I barely have any patience waiting for my batts to charge. I have read extensively about the cogging of the Mamba on Yourmicro.com so I know if I get a Mamba setup for my Half 8, I would get a Lipo. I would like to get a setup so I am interested RURC. :)

I have had very good luck with them. I guess others have not. I am refeering to both LiPo's and Mamba's. Lithiums have their set backs but you just be careful. I suggest that you might want to look at the new lipo systems comming out (paitance they will show up soon). They have serously increased them performance wise. The new charging systems will undoubtly make them last a very long time not to mention increase the run times by fully charging each cell fully. As with the Mambas I am sure that you read my last post. That mostly states it all. Except for one spot. You do have to be sure that you have very good connections. I only use deans ultra's. Then all wires should be 14 gauge. I know this is overkill. But I have always done this. From day one. And I have never experanced cogging. Mabe it is because I am OC on this. I do not know. But I have known it to work. Glad to hear form you. Good luck

JetskiMark
03-17-2005, 05:25 AM
So the Mamba Maxx will handle 14.8 volts....Mmmm the plot thickens. There are going to be some insanely fast H8s out there.

Regards,
Mark

RURC
03-17-2005, 06:47 PM
So the Mamba Maxx will handle 14.8 volts....Mmmm the plot thickens. There are going to be some insanely fast H8s out there.

Regards,
Mark

That is the general idea.

Mazda787b
03-17-2005, 07:40 PM
Sorry did not mean to imply that I was a driver. Well I am but not at that level. Just used to do club driving. In any event I was a mechanical engineer at the Porsche motorsport complex. I did travel the Porsche Cup circuit and participated in the GT1 series. In F1 I designed brake systems and was fluid dynamics specialist. I worked for several teams but non of the real big boys like MCL, Willams, or Ferarri. I did work for TWR, Footwork, Jordan and the other back markers. I do apolgize for the misunderstanding. When I said my cars, what I was refeering to was the fact that when you build something it is always yours if you understand what I mean. To this day if I see one of the cars I helped design and build I call it my car. It is just a passion for them. I think of them like my childeren. Mabe I need counseling on this.

Thats no problem, sounds like you lead a very exciting life. I understand what you mean when you say it is "your car", motorsports is a passion, and I am glad to see someone who seems to have the dedication to the hobby as you do.


I am sorry that you do not feel that we can learn from each other. I feel that I can learn from anyone. There is always someone that knows something or even has a different aspect that I did not think of. In any event it is good to meet you. :D

Glad to meet you RURC, I never said that we cannot learn form each other. Heck, I already have learnt alot form you in just the past two or three days. :)

coryj
03-18-2005, 02:17 AM
Im very interested depending on prices

RURC
03-18-2005, 03:21 AM
Glad to meet you RURC, I never said that we cannot learn form each other. Heck, I already have learnt alot form you in just the past two or three days. :)


I apolgise to you I totally mis read your post.

Right now my brother and I own Aircraft Tooling & Design inc. We are a aerospace composits design house. We do mostly prototype and oneoff custom ultra high tolerance tooling and parts. We also bring the scientists ideas to real life. We are heavly into racing now. Lots of carbon and carbon ceramic stuff. Our web site is ok but we cant put 90% of what we do there. Non disclosure agreements. Dont you love lawyers. Any how is is exciting and never dull. We never know what we will get inhouse next week. I can say (now that the project is declassified and canceled) we built the 2 generations from current Apachee replacement. But congress killed it after the one and only prototype. We did all the shell and rotor blades not the electricalor arms. It was cool to look at. Wish I could show you a photo. But the lawyers again.

Rcdriver
03-18-2005, 06:44 PM
I apolgise to you I totally mis read your post.

Right now my brother and I own Aircraft Tooling & Design inc. We are a aerospace composits design house. We do mostly prototype and oneoff custom ultra high tolerance tooling and parts. We also bring the scientists ideas to real life. We are heavly into racing now. Lots of carbon and carbon ceramic stuff. Our web site is ok but we cant put 90% of what we do there. Non disclosure agreements. Dont you love lawyers. Any how is is exciting and never dull. We never know what we will get inhouse next week. I can say (now that the project is declassified and canceled) we built the 2 generations from current Apachee replacement. But congress killed it after the one and only prototype. We did all the shell and rotor blades not the electricalor arms. It was cool to look at. Wish I could show you a photo. But the lawyers again.

Is the replacement the Comanche?

RURC
03-18-2005, 09:00 PM
I am not at liberity to say. But I can say that I have heard of that one. :D

It was just the shell I saw I never saw how far the rest got. They keep that stuff under wraps. Go figure.

Mazda787b
03-19-2005, 12:36 AM
The Commanche is a kick-ass heli. Don't worry RURC, you secret is safe with me. If you do Carbon Fiber parts, do you think you will have some for the H8? Do you have any idea how expensive would a one off be for something like a stretched Tamiya TLT chassis?

BitHed
03-19-2005, 12:51 AM
...Mazda you do TLT too? hmm...

...yeah RURC...I will pay you half a million so could you just do me up an alloy chassis please? And I am also after a carbon toilet seat...Could you set those up for me asap? The cheque is in the mail brah...

Mazda787b
03-19-2005, 01:13 AM
Yes, I just built it a week or so ago. I know I need to buy electronics for it (I already have servos and Rx), but I am probabally buying SG219's Overland.

BitHed
03-19-2005, 01:26 AM
...you need parts check PanicToys...i do TLT stuff too...

RURC
03-19-2005, 10:57 PM
The Commanche is a kick-ass heli. Don't worry RURC, you secret is safe with me. If you do Carbon Fiber parts, do you think you will have some for the H8? Do you have any idea how expensive would a one off be for something like a stretched Tamiya TLT chassis?


Right now the only RC project I am building is 1/8 bodys for Bergonzi. I do not have ready access to cheap carbon fibre. The people we deal with require scientific grade prepreg or better. This stuff goes for around 150 a sq foot. Not many people willing to part with that for a mini. Now a 1/8 scale very serious racer will pay 350 for a undistruscable body that weighs less than the lexan one it replaces. Plus it looks cool as hell. To make these as cheap as possable I use scrap cuttings off of larger projects so we have less waste. but it is still expensive. Plus the cost in developement for us is very high. While I am desigining something something else is not getting done that is netting us a whole lot more money. I even bought my carbon chassis insettd of makeing it myself. It was much cheaper.

RURC
03-19-2005, 11:01 PM
...Mazda you do TLT too? hmm...

...yeah RURC...I will pay you half a million so could you just do me up an alloy chassis please? And I am also after a carbon toilet seat...Could you set those up for me asap? The cheque is in the mail brah...

You can get the carbon potty seat from a couple of surplus stores. They originally sold (20years ago) for 5000 usd. If yo find one it goes for around 500 now.

Dont forget about the Titanium hammers for 800.

BitHed
03-19-2005, 11:15 PM
...(think Homer Simpson) Hmmm...Titanium Hammer...

...BTW i found the toilet seat i wanted...200 USD INCLUDING chromed hardware...I actually think its cool...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/bithed/toilet_03.jpg

HammerZ
03-19-2005, 11:54 PM
Now there's something you will not find in a public restroom in Japan.

bermbuster
03-20-2005, 11:41 AM
Hey RURC,
I read all these posts and I have a question or two (maybe three)
I am enjoying this small scale truck/buggy hobby/sport with my son.
You talked about operator error as causing the problems with lithium batteries. I am nervous to make the switch because I do not want my son getting hurt or something of that nature. What are some specific guidelines as for operator safety and maximum efficiency with lithium cells???
Thanks

HammerZ
03-20-2005, 12:01 PM
This is posted over on MZR. a small video on overcharging. I think it is required viewing for anyone that is looking into this.

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16353

mpetrich
03-22-2005, 07:48 PM
Hey RURC,
Any update on the battery packs you were thinking about putting together?
Thanks for the help and info.
Matt

RURC
03-26-2005, 05:44 AM
Hey RURC,
Any update on the battery packs you were thinking about putting together?
Thanks for the help and info.
Matt

First of all here is a direct link to the video...
http://www.helihobby.com/videos/LithiumBattery.wmv

Now these guys are big supporters of LiPo's. This was done to show what can happen. Now that being said it is a created worst case scnario. It can happen. I have a friend in Kansas that did have this happen. His hobby shed burned down. Now when I said that most LiPo problems were user createdI was refeering to the lack of care that is given to them. You cannot overdischarge these batteries. When you do that it creats a imbalance in the batteries. The batteries have no control over things like that . Now can a charger fail? Yes and that can also cause this same situtation. Now that is not a user failure. Most of the falures created in the lab are caused by something that a user would do. All this being said here is a list that applies to ALL battery types. I think that it is very concise and to the point. Which means, no one will follow all the steps. I dont do them all most of the time.

1. Never fast-charge any battery type unattended.
2. Never charge Li-Po cells/packs at any rate unattended.
3. Only charge Li-Po cells/packs with a charger designed specifically for lithium polymer chemistry.
4. Li-Po cells can ignite because of unmatched cell capacity or voltage, cell damage, charger failure, incorrect charger settings and other factors.
5. Always use the correct charging voltage. Li-Po cells or battery packs may ignite if connected to a charger supplying more than 6 volts per cell.
6. Always assure the charger is working properly.
7. Always charge battery packs where no harm can result. Have sand handy in a bucket for any need to extinguish any fire. NEVER use water on any cells or battery pack.
8. Never charge a cell/pack in a model. The pack can get hot on its own and that can cause a fire to start externally.
9. If a cell/pack is involved in a crash:
a. Remove the cell or battery pack from the model.
b. Carefully inspect the cell or battery pack for shorts in the wiring or connections.
c. Disassemble the pack.
d. Inspect cells for dents, cracks and splits. Dispose of damaged cells (see steep 10).
10. Dispose of cells or battery packs as follows:
a. Discharge: with the cell or battery pack in a safe area, connect a moderate resistance across the terminals until the cell or battery pack is discharged. CAUTION: the cell or battery pack may be hot!
b. Discard:
- NiMH: place in regular trash.
- NiCd: recycle (cadmium is toxic).
- Li-Po: puncture plastic envelope, immerse in salt water for several hours and place in regular trash.
11. When constructing a pack, use only cells of the same capacity (mAh).
12. Never charge a cell/pack inside a motor vehicle, or in a vehicle’s engine compartmentor on a wooden workbench, and on or near any flammable material.


Some of this is stuff I learned from other places while some is stuff that just makes sence. I hope that you find it useful.

Now on to the batteries I am working on. I have hit a small problem with the set up. The problem is......well...... have you seen the factory battery set up. That is the strangest layout I have ever seen. I have no doubdt that I can make a real good set up the will fit to a tee. But right now I really have nothing to go on as to the real size of the battery chamber. Is it shaped that strangely or is it squared, or what. I am going to have to wait till I get one in my hand to be sure that what I have will work with the highest level of performance that can be done. It will happen but it will have to wait to make sure it is right. The last thing I want is to get something that dosen't fit just right. I hope you understand the reason for the delay in posting a photo or more information.

bermbuster
03-26-2005, 12:02 PM
Thank you for a very informative reply. Spiderman says it best.....with great power (lipo pack) comes great responsibility. When you think of the potential stored energy in a lipo pack you have to respect it.I decided im going to get into lipos. First thing is a dedicated charger (less chance of a mistake) make a charging station (safe area with no flammables, sand, and a fireproof container for the packs.)

RURC
03-26-2005, 06:51 PM
Thank you for a very informative reply. Spiderman says it best.....with great power (lipo pack) comes great responsibility. When you think of the potential stored energy in a lipo pack you have to respect it.I decided im going to get into lipos. First thing is a dedicated charger (less chance of a mistake) make a charging station (safe area with no flammables, sand, and a fireproof container for the packs.)


As far as chargers go there several good ones. I really like the Hobbico Mk II Pro. It has 2 seperate outputs that can do all battery types at seperate rates. The only thing it dose not have is a discharger. The MRC 969 Pro also dose this and has a discharger but it is complacated to set up. I have 2 of both and use the Hobbico 90% of the time. Also Kokam has a new system comming out very very soon the uses the individual field cell chargeing system. They even have high "C" rate packs comming out with the charger. I am really going to look into this system. the Apogee and Thunder Power chargers are bare bones but they come from Lithium manufactures and are very good also. If I was buying new again I would really look at those 2. I have flying buddies and they really like them. I have a old fire cabinet that I keep all mt stuff in. I got it at an auction for like 20 bucks. It is not pritty but it is safe. I have packs that are over 8000 maH. If one of these goes it will be like the 4th of July.

halfEIGHT
03-29-2005, 06:29 PM
This is posted over on MZR. a small video on overcharging. I think it is required viewing for anyone that is looking into this.

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16353

Yep - as Mondo pointed out one of our YM Members had this happen w/ the Novak LiPo which was recalled shortly after. What I don't get is why they used Mindfields for the soundtrack rather than Firestarter! :D