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View Full Version : Brushless Vs. Brushed



groundhogg
06-18-2006, 09:33 PM
Is there a brushed motor made for the Mini Inferno that can keep up with the brushless selection out there?

Lemme take a step back & explain my situation. I own an almost box stock MIST (new rec/speedo/motor/servo), that I like alot. I almost strictly race it, so I go for performance over bling. I have a Mamba25 with the 6.8k motor right now. It is quite fast, but I often have cogging issues during the race, and the motor comes off the track blistering hot (5 minutes).

I have an Atom ESC that could fit in nicely, but I am curious if there is a brushed motor that can equate to my brushless? I am currently running 6 cells, but I could go to 8 if that could be of help with speed.

Or, is there something i could do to prevent the cogging during the race? I saw the motor mount with the fan attached, and it's on my list of hop-ups.

I guess what I'd really like to see is a brushless motor that is the size of the stock MIST motor (380 size?). Seems like that would stay cooler than stressing the poor Mamba motor. Doesn't the Mamba wear out prematurely due to the heat?

Any thoughts, guys?

ChrisOFNA
06-19-2006, 12:19 AM
I use a hacker brushless motor (same size can as mamba motors) which gets hot after ripping it up and down the street (and because thats what happens after adding a 3 cell lipo), but I've never raced it. To get rid of some heat id try to get the 3Racing motor mount with fan. From what I've heard itll cool it down 15-20 degrees. You might also wanna check out some of the settings on the esc with the castle creations link.

I've never seen a brushed system out for the mini inferno that will contend with the brushless systems out there...

On a side note: What size battery are you using?

BiGRoB21
06-19-2006, 12:27 AM
what is your gearing, and battery set up?

pointcrossed
06-20-2006, 11:30 AM
Is there a brushed motor made for the Mini Inferno that can keep up with the brushless selection out there?

I have an Atom ESC that could fit in nicely, but I am curious if there is a brushed motor that can equate to my brushless?

Doesn't the Mamba wear out prematurely due to the heat?

Any thoughts, guys?

Here is my thought

Nope

No, there is not one.

If you add a heatsink to the mamba then no, better yet, search the threads, no flame, hopefully someone else will get the idea and keep searching

groundhogg
06-24-2006, 03:42 AM
I use 6 of the 2/3 AA cells. Intellect 1400

I believe I have the 6800k Mamba motor.

11t associated pinion

The speed is good, fast as everyone around except one 18T. Just the cogging issues kill me.

No problem, PointCrossed. Just asking to see if anybody has investigated.

I will get the fan heatsink, but 15-20 degres is not really enough cooling in my mind.

habitforming
06-24-2006, 02:33 PM
I have two suggestions: 1) new motor, 2) new ESC

The Mamba systems are pretty good for mini's the size of m18 and rc18, but with the added mass of mini's like the KMI, MIST, or MLST, it just doesn't have the guts to move them well.

I've been running a Hyperion 5k motor with Mamba 25 esc for a few weeks. It was good, and plenty of fun, but it still had minor cogging issues, and minor throttle adjustments on the tx end always seemed to result in big power changes at the buggy.

Just last night I fired the KMI up with my new Quark 33a pro-car ESC... WOW! It is night and day different, and better in every way. Honestly I think the Quark ESC is just a better ESC in general than the Mamba. It's also much more suited to the power levels required for the heavier minis.

So sell the mamba system and invest in a Quark 33a pro-car and a 380 size brushless motor (Aon, Hyperion, Wraith). It will make a huge difference.

mat3833
06-24-2006, 08:30 PM
if you have the castle link update the software and up the cell count to 8. drop your timing to normal or the one below it and use a 10 t pinion. that should help your problem until you can get the quark/wraith combo. im running the 5400 and i have a cooling fan, my temps only get hot when its realy tacky on the track. but im looking into the wraith ang quark33 pro-car combo so i can throw my mamba into my mini-t that im getting. good luck!

Matt

pimpsmurf
06-24-2006, 10:33 PM
I've not experienced cogging issues as much as most people with a Hyperion or Aon brushless. Hyperions are sweet on 8 cells or 2 cell lipo. Aons are better for higher voltages (3-4 cell lipo. I think the Aon can handle 16v IIRC.

The brushed options are pretty slim. Rocket 400s are popular, but closed can (not rebuildable.)

I kept my MLST Brushed just because I like the responce. When I am in a turn and loose wheel rotation in a little bit of a slide, the brushed motors will spin right up where the brushless hesitates a tiny bit. Perhaps this is the "cogging" that people complain about w/ the mamba 25 ESC. Cogging is such a generic term and sometimes over-applies term that it is hard to tell what anyone means.

I would like to try maybe the Quark 33 ESC, but I really really like my Mamba link, so it's unlikely I'll make the switch. Still not racing the mini's here unfortunately. Never can get a consistant croud together although there are a lot of H8's, MLST's, and other minis floating around the area.

-JNY

habitforming
06-24-2006, 11:20 PM
I've not experienced cogging issues as much as most people with a Hyperion or Aon brushless. Hyperions are sweet on 8 cells or 2 cell lipo. Aons are better for higher voltages (3-4 cell lipo. I think the Aon can handle 16v IIRC.

The brushed options are pretty slim. Rocket 400s are popular, but closed can (not rebuildable.)

I kept my MLST Brushed just because I like the responce. When I am in a turn and loose wheel rotation in a little bit of a slide, the brushed motors will spin right up where the brushless hesitates a tiny bit. Perhaps this is the "cogging" that people complain about w/ the mamba 25 ESC. Cogging is such a generic term and sometimes over-applies term that it is hard to tell what anyone means.

I would like to try maybe the Quark 33 ESC, but I really really like my Mamba link, so it's unlikely I'll make the switch. Still not racing the mini's here unfortunately. Never can get a consistant croud together although there are a lot of H8's, MLST's, and other minis floating around the area.

-JNY

The Quark Pro-Car definately fixes the exact problem you're referring to. I couldn't believe the difference between the two when I switched a few days ago. I really can't say enough good about the Quark esc.

As far as the USB link... yes it's a very nice feature, but the programming method of the Quark is very easy to understand, quick to do, and you don't have to carry around a laptop and spare cable everywhere you go if you want to make a change. The USB link is a very small tradeoff for the higher quality of the Quark.

pimpsmurf
06-26-2006, 05:09 PM
Well, I might just be sold on the Quark. I am looking at possibly taking the MLST brushless as the Novak Micro GT ESC is overheating after 10 minutes or so on 2 16 turn trinity cobalts and 2cell lipo power. Sucks.

Can't be sure (cause I'm married now), but a quark may be making it's way into my H8 soon.

-JNY

habitforming
06-26-2006, 07:14 PM
DO IT!!!!

How has your luck been with diffs on your MLST running that motor setup?

groundhogg
06-29-2006, 01:31 AM
Thank you, habitforming. I'll have to investigate the Quark.

Do you have any links?

pimpsmurf
06-29-2006, 10:39 PM
DO IT!!!!

How has your luck been with diffs on your MLST running that motor setup?
Luck has nothing to do with it. =)

I run a very low gear ratio. 23->60 w/ the dual disk slipper (propperly tuned) and the Losi center diff (also properly tuned)

I have the losi replacement diffs (not boiled, not shimmed. shimming is bad for the upgraded diffs) covered in the white grease and I've had over 100 battery packs run through it without an issue. Jumps, flips, traction rolls, no problemo.

The problem comes from locked slippers, locked center diffs, and such. IMHO

I've recently migrated to an Aon/2cell 2AH lipo/mamba with great results. It is slower than the trinity motors, but the runtime is much much much better.

I plan to move the Aon back to the H8, and score a wraith for the MLST and sell my Novak Micro GT, the trinity motors, and one of my mambas (keeping one for the Mini-T because it's tuned perfectly.

Hopefully I can find someone who would be interested. I would take 135 for all of it (1 mamba, 2 cobalts, novak micro GT, and even the heatsinks for the motors. :) )

Hopefully I won't loose too much runtime by switching to the wraith/quark combo, but to be honest, I was kinda bored after the first 20 minutes. It was too slow to actually enjoy all the runtime. The half8 rocketship is much more fun. It just never gets old. Even just dragging down the street and into the driveway and whatnot.

-JNY

mOOsE
06-29-2006, 11:42 PM
my trinity motors blew the front diff running the center ball diff. Then they blew the center diff when I ran the stock center. They they blew all 3. Then I bought B&S and have a locked f/c/r setup and don't even drive it. Might just sell the MLST since I don't use it. Glad to hear you still like yours though

habitforming
06-30-2006, 12:38 AM
Sorry, but I feel like luck has a lot to do with it... I've been through iterations of all 3 center diff options, all methods of assembling f/r diffs, and I still have tremendous diff breakage problems. It's a 3 cell 1320 pack, aon 4900, and mamba 25. i have dd slipper so loose it almost never locks down, and still have gears strip, with only moderate jumping. i've just bought two new gear housings, and i'm a tester for the new DP delrin gears, so we'll see how that goes (I have high expectations).

For how many of us have repetitive problems, I really think luck is a big part of it. Just a matter of all the bad tolerances falling into place in a good way... glad some of us get to enjoy it though. mine was a shelf queen until I started robbing parts off of it for the H8. but now that i've gotten better replacements for the new hotness, the mlst can start coming back together.

pimpsmurf
06-30-2006, 04:26 AM
A 3 cell aon is a whole whole lotta torque man. I got worried about a 2 cell hyperion on this sucker. We all know it's poorly designed and fragile, but hopefully DP is doing something about it. =)

I've found the stock center to be fine. Only broke the rear twice and front once. Still have the other set sitting in a bag from many months ago.

I didn't boil them or shim them or anything. I just dumped them in the car and it has been pretty solid with the cobalts (which are fairly fast.) I think that maybe the 2 cell hyperion is faster, but I'll have to see at the track tomorrow. My MLST gets bashed pretty hard at the track. I'm all over the place bouncing off of everything. Landing on 2 wheels and proceeding to wheelie for 10-20 feet. Seriously nuts. The only thing that really pissed me off about the Aon w/ 7.4v was the lack of top end. It really made jumping difficult because I was already at top speed at the top of the jump, so I couldn't get it to nose up. I'm sure it would be a lot better with a locked center, but I'm waiting on good diffs for that.

Anyways, give us the play by play gory details when you get the DP gears in. I can't wait to get mine =)

-JNY