PDA

View Full Version : Charger...



gopher
12-23-2005, 07:45 PM
seriously, all my questions will end soon! I promise!

I need a new one, and VERY little money. I see all these for $20 USD but can only do 7 cell... I want a URC sport 42s =-\

I really don't want to break the bank, and the hobbico mkii seems like a good deal if all I need is a car battery? (hve a charger for that so will last awhile).

any other suggestions? Would I be better off getting a 3 cell lipo charger and switching to lipos?

running an AE xps esc with a speed 400 right now.

thanks!

bermbuster
12-23-2005, 08:33 PM
Hey gopher,
I hate to give you some bad news but your speed control is not rated for 9.6v. It is only rated for 8.5.....You will burn it up.......

mat3833
12-23-2005, 11:06 PM
ok i got the e-flite pinnacle charger and love it. it is 80.00 but can do up to 16 cells and there is an AC/DC version of it to. charge rate is adjustable from .2 to 5 amps.

Matty

RURC
01-03-2006, 12:37 PM
The MK II is a great charger. I have 2 of them. They will do up to 8 cells and 3 cell lithium. They also do 2 batteries at once completely sepetately. For the money I think they are the best deal going.

As for MAT3833. The Pinnacle is a great charger also just a little more expensive. Also dump the political comentary crap. This is not your liberal blog. We are here talking about RC cars and their related items.

mat3833
01-03-2006, 06:13 PM
As for MAT3833. The Pinnacle is a great charger also just a little more expensive. Also dump the political comentary crap. This is not your liberal blog. We are here talking about RC cars and their related items.


are you talking about my sig?? if you are im sorry but i wont change it, i have a rite to freedom of speech and i will exercise it to the fullest extent this site will allow. i have my opinions and you have yours, if you had somepthing like that in your sig i wouldnt have said anything.

Matty

RURC
01-03-2006, 07:47 PM
are you talking about my sig?? if you are im sorry but i wont change it, i have a rite to freedom of speech and i will exercise it to the fullest extent this site will allow. i have my opinions and you have yours, if you had somepthing like that in your sig i wouldnt have said anything.

Matty
It is too bad that you do not have the intellgence to realise that this is not a political place. It is also too bad that you do not realise that I have not made any political position known on that issue or others. Finally have you learned how to use a butterfly ballot yet?

Sorry to go off subject with this.

One thing new (to me) make sure that what ever charger you get it is clearly for Lithium Polymer batterys not Lithium Ion. Apparentally the charge curve is the same but the cut off voltage is differant. One that is not spicific to li poly will only charge to about 85 to 90% of capisity. I just learned this today in a phone conversation with the owner of Apogee batteries. Hope this helps.

Hawk
01-03-2006, 07:51 PM
. Finally have you learned how to use a butterfly ballot yet?



ROTFLMAO :D

mat3833
01-03-2006, 08:28 PM
It is too bad that you do not have the intellgence to realise that this is not a political place. It is also too bad that you do not realise that I have not made any political position known on that issue or others. Finally have you learned how to use a butterfly ballot yet?

i do realise that this is not a political place, but as i said i have freedon of speech. i also realise that you havent made your "political position on these matters" known, and that is your rite, but it is also mine to express my position. also i am 16 so i cant vote yet, which means i do not know how to use a butterfly ballot. now lets be mature and drop this subject.

now if you want a great charger and dont mind spending some money get the triton or the ice. both can do lipo and nimh/nicad

Matty

Hawk
01-03-2006, 08:50 PM
Since you brought up maturity, Matt, I will give you my piece about it. I assumed you were not very mature and just let it go. Now, I think you just don't understand that before your 'rights' comes a lot of responsibilities. Be responsible and stop sticking you inflamatory sayings in every ones face. The point is to come here and have fun. Now you want to change it to a stage for you to display you 'rights'.

We, when I was a couple of years older than you are now, I was in the military and defended the rights you now claim. I risked my life so you could be as obnoxious as you want. I don't have to like it, I understand that probably better than you.

This is not a political forum and nobody objects to your rc related post. I do also object to your political statements and think they are out of place. I don't for a second think you don't have the right to say them. I am convinced you don't have the grace, inteligence or wisdom to know when not to say them.

Trickpatrick
01-03-2006, 09:36 PM
Matty seriously 16 is not old enough to have a political opinion or to understand your rights for that matter.

Your are about the right age to be playing with these toy's, so you have us on that one.

When you get to be past 40 or so you start to realize that humans tend to follow along to much. And that we were doing it to without realizing it.
Some people never get this. And tend to belive whatever is shoveled into thier head.

The first real step in growing up is to see this and to slow down and think clearly about what we know and believe.

It doesnt always turnout to be what our parents or friends believe.

Maybe you have someone dear to you over there now.
And of course you want them home.

But I ask you this Matt if you know someone in the war when they come back ask them why they went. If you can, ask as many people as you can who where there what it ment to them.

Can you imagine what it would be like if you risked your life and some of your friends died by your side during the year or more you gave your all to save other people from dieing. And then your goverment said stop we're done.
Sorry we couldnt really help after all ,your on your own.

There are young men like you there that are only alive becase there is a soilder on his street corner with a M16 making sure he stay's alive.

If they leave now soo. many people would die more than we can imagine or want to.

Matt life is not about us it is not about what's popular.
It about what you can do to make it better.

I am only trying to help you see a bigger picture.

I am sorry if I offended anyone and wont go off again.

RURC
01-04-2006, 12:10 AM
HAWK

As a former Marine I agree with you to one point; as Trickpatrick pointed out he is 16 and not old enouf to even basically understand. I did not put on the uniform to allow tenderfoot here to air opionins that are immature and rooted in a lack of experance. I did however put on the uniform to allow him to live and learn in a free socicity. The first thing MATT needs to learn about freedom is that it is not free. Many a great man has fought and died. This is a high cost. Freedom demands great responsiability for your actions, words and decisions. The responsiability of freedom is many times greater than the act of freedom. I will fight for this country and what the founding fathers started, and I will gladly die to keep this land free and clear. All I ask in return is that you take the responsiability seriously and perform personal responsiability.

MATT I understand that you have a passion, that is great. However do not let your passion blind you from what is real and right in front of you. I am not saying to ignore your passions just understand the underlieing principals that allow you to say and do what you wish. Learn what is really going on. I have 231 dear friends in Iraq now. I also have 11 funerals I have attended for people I love like my family. Learn dont just accept what is being feed to you. Learn history so you do not repeat it as others have. Read the Federalist Papers so you can understand what the Constitution is all about. Then learn about the Venona Project (circa 1950 to 1994) to see what happens when you turn a blind eye to your responsiability as an American. I wish you luck in your growing up and hope to learn that you have given this country the respect it deserves with the time it takes to learn the realities of freedom. :eek:

Now back to the regurally scheduled program:

Any one know about these new Lithium Magisem batteries. I am learning all I can about them. So far it seems that you will be able to use LIPO chargers to charge them. Susposidly they do not have the heat problem that can effect lipos in hi drain conditions. :)

mat3833
01-04-2006, 12:42 AM
you kno i would love to ask some pple why they went over to iraq. my uncle was over there and so was my step cousin. both wont be comming back. my uncle was hit by a random mortor from islamic extremists, and my cousin took a sniper round to the chest. so if this doesnt give me a reason to state the comments in my signature then i will remove it. a also have relatives that fought in desert storm, WW2, and the first part of iraqi freedom. i plan to go into the millitary when i can but for now i cant. i am going to leave this subject at that and i will not respond in this thread again. unless i fell i have useful info on the subject.

EDIT: signature edited due to complaints, if it is still too much state in a post and i will change it so as not to make anyone mad. i have no hard feelings toward anyone who has posted on my sig. i hope you dont have any toward me either.

Matt

BitHed
01-04-2006, 12:58 AM
...As a moderator I have asked to Matt to change his signature...Thats all i can realistically do...

...As a reasonably normally functioning human being i have the following thoughts on this...And I would rather NOT have to speak on this at all...

...We are all making good points...I think some of the comments from the 'older' posters are incredibly insightful...I ALSO believe that Matt has the 'right' to say what he wants; But there is also a time and a place and an occasion for things to be said and commens to be made...

...I actually thought this would come out sooner when i first saw the comments in question...I can see from the posts made that at least TWO users were 'holding their tongues'...It wasnt until RURC openly commented on it that other voices came up...

...To me THIS is the epitome of free speech...That people felt uncomfortable with the comments but didnt say anything...Letting the 'commenter' continue on with it, even though they didnt like it...But ONCE someone OPENLY voices concern / anger at said comment, to me that is game over...

...Being ALLOWED to say something is a gift, gees there are so MANY things that we can do as 'rights', but there is a correct time and place to exercise these rights...

...Here again I will openly and publically ask Matt to change his signature...That is all i can do...Hopefully we can all understand that it will be BIGGER of Matt to respect the 'rights' of those around him and change it than to sit there stubbornly and protect only his 'own' rights...

...NOW you can see why i never posted in the 'XMAS' threads :rolleyes:

mat3833
01-04-2006, 12:59 AM
what needs to be changed bit?? i changed it when i got your mail.

Matt

RURC
01-04-2006, 01:38 AM
MATT
First thank you for changeing your signature.

I know that I am not angry with you nor do I have hard feelings. I believe that Trickpatrick and HAWK are in the same mindset as I. We all have stated that you give great and useful RC information. But our concern was weather this is the place for this comentary. I think it is not. I feel for your loss. I have a photo and an essay on every one of the 63 uniformed men and women I have had the honour of serving with and seen burried. This is a harsh reality of life that I wish did not occur. But such are the things of man. I know that I welcome your comments on RC in this forum and if I come across you in a political based forum I would really consider it a privelidge to debate you and discuss my view of the 'Reality of freedom' with you.

BIT
I did not want to be the one to say something first. But it just hit me wrong this morning when I read it again. I have another funeral to go to in about a week.

So :) Have you heard anything of the lithium magnisim batteries I was trying to change the subject on? I welcom your comments. :D

Hawk
01-04-2006, 01:48 AM
So :) Have you heard anything of the lithium magnisim batteries I was trying to change the subject on? I welcom your comments. :D

I have looked at LiFE batteries and they look good. Given some development time and wider distribution and they may take over.
Here is the site that sells them. I have read about it other places but they list a charger (schulze of course) that has a program specifically for them.

http://power-motion.com/

RURC
01-04-2006, 02:06 AM
HAWK,

I should have some by the 20 of this month. Approved and ready for RC action. I just cant find out any real information on them. I have only talked to designers and engineers and 1 user. I cant devulge any more information at this time. Needless to say that I cant get the designer and engineer to devulge anything either. I have been told to expect thousands of charges. Very low possbaility of fire bombing. And amazing run times. When I get them I will of course put out the word. One thing I do know is that they are only going to be available in fairly large maH rateings. 3000 and greater. I do not have a size yet. I am told that I will like it.

I went to that web site and where dose it say that they are li mg cells? I was also told by the designer that the cells will look almost exactly like lipo cells. I wonder what gives????????????????????

Hawk
01-04-2006, 02:14 AM
Sorry, I got side tracked when I was spining the web. I found this site with Saphion (tm) cells. They are not Lithium Magnesesium, they are Lithium Phosphate. LiFe cells. There seems to be lots of activity with various different Lithium based cells. Sorry I quoted before I reread.
d

gopher
01-04-2006, 02:28 AM
i'll never ask about chargers again!

j/k

It was my thread before all the... er.. what nots... mainly all I have to say about any of that is, freedom is not free, war always sucks and never produces a winner.

I never served in the military but know many who are and have. I have great respect for anyone that has/is/or will serve in our military. One thing kept me out, that is my current wife when she said "yes".

The one thing that makes me mad is how people complain about deaths during war... or people that protest someone like Bush... If they want his job, give it to them... I would never want to have his responsibilties, the weight that man carries on his shoulders is enough to crush most leaders.


anyhow... I think I will go with the MKII... sold my h8, and just got a T Maxx to sell :) Hope to get around $250 to build a nice h8 :)

Just waiting on bit to send me that h8 st roller $$ amount ;)

RURC
01-04-2006, 02:53 AM
i'll never ask about chargers again!

j/k

It was my thread before all the... er.. what nots... mainly all I have to say about any of that is, freedom is not free, war always sucks and never produces a winner.



Well someone has to win or it never ends. War dose not suck; it is hell (check Patton) And I am sorry GOPHER it is all my fault. I just couldn't help myself.


DID you read the part where I auctually tried to help? The MKII is a LiIon charger and will not fully charge your LiPo's. I just learned this today in a conversation with the owner of Apogee. So look it over.

gopher
01-04-2006, 11:42 AM
doh! Thanks RURC. now that throws me for a loop =\ I take it there is no lowcost lipoly/nimh type charger than? I think the MKII was the lowest at around $50, even if DC only.

bermbuster
01-04-2006, 12:00 PM
apache makes a dc charger that does lipos and nimh 1.2 amps max. it is about $30. www.b-p-p.com sells them. I dont remember the model number.

gopher
01-04-2006, 01:50 PM
would this be a good one then?

http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=c_A2030

for the price that is pretty nice :) doesn't say if it is DC only or what though, I would assume so because of the price.

If I did get this, how long would it take to charge say a sport 42s or a 3 cell lipo?

sorry for all the n00b questions.

RURC
01-04-2006, 02:55 PM
After careful consideration I have decided on the Hyperion EOS 5i ( http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=d_EOS_5I ) This will continue to grow with the advent of larger cell count packs and will even do the NiMH for my son (he is 6 I dont let him play with lithium). I have ordered 2 of these and one EOS 7i ( http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=e_EOS_7i ). This I will use as a standard as I expand into beta testing for battery companies. For daily use I will continue to use the MKII. The reason for this is, as I have continued to learn, you can extend the overall life of your lithium packs if you do not charge them above 90%. Since the MKII will only charge to about 85 to 90% this should be great in extending the life of these expensive packs. I have emailed and talked on the phone with several battery engineers and they all stated the same thing as to the longevitity of the packs being extended by not charceing them to 100%. Since lithiums do not ever get a memory you can fully charge them when ever. Also you do not want to fully charge them when you are putting them away. I am trying to clear the waters that I clouded. :)

RURC
01-04-2006, 03:03 PM
would this be a good one then?

http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=c_A2030

for the price that is pretty nice :) doesn't say if it is DC only or what though, I would assume so because of the price.

If I did get this, how long would it take to charge say a sport 42s or a 3 cell lipo?

sorry for all the n00b questions.

The problem I see is that it is for small lithiums. It will only do packs 1200 maH or smaller. No car will function properly on that maH unless it is a 20 "C" pack or better. Those are few and very far between. The best packs I know of in that small size are Apogee 1500 20 "C". That is a 30 amp continous draw pack. Perfect for small cars. NOT BIG ENOUF FOR 1/12 OR BIGGER CARS.

Make sure you check all the specs for the chargers. Many have maH limitations. Sorry for the bad news. :(


I am going to start a thread later today on balance charging. Please keep an eye out for it. I think I will cause quite a stir with it.

gopher
01-04-2006, 03:56 PM
so if I don't want to spend $80+ the mkii isn't a bad choice? cause if I go lipo i can't fully charge, but they will last longer right?

RURC
01-04-2006, 04:01 PM
That is what I have learned over the past 2 days.

mat3833
01-04-2006, 09:07 PM
i'll never ask about chargers again!

j/k

It was my thread before all the... er.. what nots... mainly all I have to say about any of that is, freedom is not free, war always sucks and never produces a winner.



srry about all that....

Matt

bermbuster
01-04-2006, 09:41 PM
wouldnt the charger charge a larger capacity pack too? it only charges at 1200mah max....say you charge a 2000mah lipo....wouldnt it just charge for more time.....until the voltage reaches its limit.....(roughly 100min.) or am i missing something?

scottb
01-05-2006, 12:03 AM
...in fact I would recommend it for anyone who does Lipo.

This balancer balances, and has a shutoff feature in case one cell goes above 4.3 (I believe it is 4.3). Anyway - I hope you got this RURC because it is very cool (gives you peace of mind - let us know whay you think of it). The catch: you need Lipo batteries with the battery taps (Thunder Power, Polyquest, etc.). In essence, the taps allow you to monitor each cell.

I had the Apache Lipo charger - it works, but I can't recommend it. I use a triton (it does everything), is only $100 on ebay, and, most importantly, it has a digital readout so you can monitor your charge. Lipos start chaging at low amps, then charges fast (at your setting), then near peak, uses low amps again. It also gives you mah capacity (estimated) - so you know how much of the pack you used.

Berm: Yes you are right (lipo chargers don't have a max mah charge capacity) - I believe this feature is for nimh (nimh under 1200 require a different peak detection than sub-c cells). The triton has a max mah feature so you don't put in 2200 mah into a 2000 mah pack.

One note on "C" ratings. You may not need a 20C cell if you have a high capacity cell. For instance, if you have a 2 cell, 2000mah pack rated at 20c, it can handle 40 amps (2000 mah x 20c = 40000/1000 = 40 amps). If you have a 1200mah pack rated at 20c, it will only handle 24 amps. Maxamps.com batteries has this listed - very nice. So, in essence, you are right - you will need a 20c or above in most cases (I run a 3 cell 15C 2000mah in my MiniLST - more than enough for the esc/motor). For all my Lipo questions - I go to the forums at rcuniverse.com and rcgroups.com - airplane section.

pimpsmurf
01-05-2006, 12:26 AM
RURC: GREAT FIND MAN! That Hyperion EOS 5i kicks my $90 charger's ass! Mine is the Vision Peak Ultra AC/DC Charger (http://www.dynamiterc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=DYN4053) Higher cell counts on yours plus yours does cycling. Do you know if it support Lithium Polymer cycling (for when you first buy a new pack)?

The only thing that sucks is you would need a 12V power supply if you wanted to use it in the house. Those things are pricey which is why I went with the Dynamite which has a 2A 12v supply built in for 110v use, and 12v aligator clips for the truck.

The 7i is also a bad mamma-jamma! 7 amps charging capability? Makes me want to built that brushless lipo 1:6 scale custom I've been obsessing over on those lonely winter nights.

-JNY

RURC
01-05-2006, 03:54 AM
RURC: GREAT FIND MAN! That Hyperion EOS 5i kicks my $90 charger's ass! Mine is the Vision Peak Ultra AC/DC Charger (http://www.dynamiterc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=DYN4053) Higher cell counts on yours plus yours does cycling. Do you know if it support Lithium Polymer cycling (for when you first buy a new pack)?

The only thing that sucks is you would need a 12V power supply if you wanted to use it in the house. Those things are pricey which is why I went with the Dynamite which has a 2A 12v supply built in for 110v use, and 12v aligator clips for the truck.

The 7i is also a bad mamma-jamma! 7 amps charging capability? Makes me want to built that brushless lipo 1:6 scale custom I've been obsessing over on those lonely winter nights.

-JNY


With Lipo you dont really cycle. This is done at the factory and is called forming. I do not reccomend that you perform this at home. The nice units for this and matching cost around 100k and the cheap ones are 50k. Besides you dont want to use cycles unless it is nessary because you have a finite number of charges with lithium.

Please dont charge these things in the house. I just have a car battery with a battery maintaince charger on it. I have charged 10 batteries at once off it and not a problem. Buy a Battery Bunker for your lipos. Just to be safe.

Well if you want to "built" it then do it. I have my 1/6 project coming nicely.


...in fact I would recommend it for anyone who does Lipo.

This balancer balances, and has a shutoff feature in case one cell goes above 4.3 (I believe it is 4.3). Anyway - I hope you got this RURC because it is very cool (gives you peace of mind - let us know whay you think of it). The catch: you need Lipo batteries with the battery taps (Thunder Power, Polyquest, etc.). In essence, the taps allow you to monitor each cell.


One note on "C" ratings. You may not need a 20C cell if you have a high capacity cell. For instance, if you have a 2 cell, 2000mah pack rated at 20c, it can handle 40 amps (2000 mah x 20c = 40000/1000 = 40 amps). If you have a 1200mah pack rated at 20c, it will only handle 24 amps. Maxamps.com batteries has this listed - very nice. So, in essence, you are right - you will need a 20c or above in most cases (I run a 3 cell 15C 2000mah in my MiniLST - more than enough for the esc/motor). For all my Lipo questions - I go to the forums at rcuniverse.com and rcgroups.com - airplane section.

Scot
You are going to want to keep an eye out on the "Balancing Act" thread I will start. I am still finishing up some reasearch on the subject.

Now on your "C" comment. You find a 2000maH battery that will fit in the factory holes for the damn H8. I have looked long and hard. I have finally gotton a 20 "C" 1500maH that I will be running. I will have 2 of these in paraell for 3000 total maH and 60 amps. Now I know I will not be cutting it close at all. Even with the bursts in excess of 125 amps I have seen in my H8.

pimpsmurf
01-05-2006, 04:32 AM
With Lipo you dont really cycle. This is done at the factory and is called forming. I do not reccomend that you perform this at home. The nice units for this and matching cost around 100k and the cheap ones are 50k. Besides you dont want to use cycles unless it is nessary because you have a finite number of charges with lithium.

http://pfmdistribution.com/files/ApogeeBatterySafetyGuidelines.pdf

They have (newly updated) guidelines on breaking in thier lithium polymers to allow cooler running and better runtimes (at high current) vs just throwing them in.

Those are the guidelines for the unitedrc.com packs. Are they just trying to get you to waste 15 cycles, or does it actually give you cooler, higher voltage (under load) cells?

I'm sure there is some science behind it. I need a new multi-meter so I can tell if this bulb array is actually 12 amps... :D

-JNY

RURC
01-05-2006, 08:13 PM
OK.

Bill at apogee is a great guy and a fountian of knowledge. Also Bill is a absolute perfectionist. This is not bad. I think it is one of his greatest strengths. Bill wants every last gram of performance that can be rung out anything he touches ( the perfectionist in him). This is good. In all the times Bill and I have talked he has never said to me to cycle my packs. Perhaps he thought I did this or knew he recommended it. I do not and did not. As I write this I am waiting for a phone call from Bill. I will question him fully on his aspect of this.

Now In a continueing attempt to keep one step ahead of those who "question my authoritie" :D (a quote from Cartman in South Park, ment as a joke, I am not serously condemming anyone who questions me, really, this has been a test of the emergency joke broadcasting service :) ). I have contacted people I know at Kokam and Thunder Power. I use these three because they are the only ones I reccomend and I trust.

First Kokam. These are the guys that make the Scorpion line of car packs as well as the Kokam line (duh). They do not recommend doing this. Their reason is as I stated. It just uses cycles. The factory forms (cycles) the pack during the matching process. And one I did not know or state; the gain is generally less than 1% buton very large packs (around 8000 maH) you may get 2%. Also I was told that this needs to be done (if you decide to do it) very very slowly. Less than 1 amp. Not 7 "C" like indicated on the Apogee page. I was also told that this happens within the first 5 cycles of the batteries use. Dont waste the finite number of charges you have. Again please remember I am waiting for a call from Bill (owner of Apogee) to get his take on this. This is simply what Kokam says.

Thunder Power says " For Christs sake dont do this on a charger if you do it at all, but we say dont do it. This is not reccomended from us. Nobody has a retail charger on the market that can do this for a LiPo". I think that was clear. Also why waste the cycles was mentioned later in the conversation. Again I am waiting for Bill to call me on this.

Dont go emailing Bill and say that this guy Michael on HalfEight is bad mouthing him. I am not I think the man is great. I want to get his side of this as to his reasons why and what gains you will get for it. Mabe his cells are slightly differant than some of the others and ...... Look I am not going to speculate further. As soon as Bill contacts me I will post an update with his point of view. As for right now I will say do it to Apogee packs but not with Kokam (Scorpion) or Thunder Power.


BTW the United RC packs are Apogee packs. That is why they reccomend it.

Also the new packs will be comming with a airgap between the packs. This will make the packs a little thicker but will allow them to run cooler. This is from Apogee.

Trickpatrick
01-05-2006, 08:34 PM
I just want to say thanks too you all who are doing this Lipo type research it is appreciated.

scottb
01-05-2006, 09:01 PM
find a 2000maH battery that will fit in the factory holes for the damn H8
No - the new Thunder Tiger 2100 (http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=L_TP2100_11.1) may work (rotate the motor 180 deg). I have the Thunder Tiger 2000 - perfect fit for my MLST - but now that I'm waiting for my H8ST, I'll also be mulling over battery placement (I used to own a h8, but Bermbuster bought it).

I'm interested in what you find on balancers, RURC. My conclusion: the Hyperion & TP are the best - The blinky (atroflight) works ok & is cheap. But... the ultimate, worry-free Lipo charger/balancer is still not out there. This should be done - a self-detecting lipo charger - it detects the # of cells through the taps & charges at the amps you set.

IMO- I've seen articles on cycling / balancing / cell maintenance and it is kind of an overkill. I want batteries that are powerful, w large capacity and safe. The Lipo has 2 of the 3. For safety - I agree with you totally. Either charge outside (away from structures/cars) or in a vault (cinder blocks work). Always use a lipo charger, preferably w a PCM or equivalent. In 5 years the NIMH will be a thing of the past.

RURC
01-05-2006, 09:26 PM
Thunder Tiger makes cars, planes, motorcycles, hellis, and boats I think. They also have probally the best overall .21 engine out there.

Thunder Power OEMs batteries. They are not related that I know of.

I just had to bust your chops LOL.


No - the new Thunder Tiger 2100 (http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=L_TP2100_11.1) may work (rotate the motor 180 deg). I have the Thunder Tiger 2000 - perfect fit for my MLST - but now that I'm waiting for my H8ST, I'll also be mulling over battery placement (I used to own a h8, but Bermbuster bought it).

I'm interested in what you find on balancers, RURC. My conclusion: the Hyperion & TP are the best - The blinky (atroflight) works ok & is cheap. But... the ultimate, worry-free Lipo charger/balancer is still not out there. This should be done - a self-detecting lipo charger - it detects the # of cells through the taps & charges at the amps you set.




The TP 2100 dose not fit. I have 2 of them and they kick ass but will not fit. It is 34mm x 98mm x 20mm the max you can fit in the factory position is 48mm x 62mm x 17mm. If you really push it you can go to 50mm x 62mm x 24mm. This dose require small mods to the chassis like raising the topplate. It really will squeeze in tight. The 62 mm gives you 1.5 mm of space to the rear lower control arm. Now you can do a little better if you take out the dremel tool and do severe changes to the chassis. But you will not get the 98mm in there. My measurements are not of the original pack or the optional ones it is right off the chassis takeing all parts into account.

RURC
01-05-2006, 10:05 PM
I just talked to Bill at Apogee. Here is what he says and this is going to make me do some real testing on my end. Its not like I dont have enouf to do already.

First and foremost Bill says that his recomendations come from real world work and testing done by him and is ment to cut through the BS (barbra stisand) without reguard to anyones feelings. The facts according to Bill.

(Side bar: Is this guy greeat or what)

MM: Bill what can I expect to gain by following your conditioning instructions?

BB: Higher voltage output under load and lower running temps under load.

MM: What kind of increase can I expect in voltage?

BB: About 5%, in this sport this can be a lot. When you need that extra bit. It holds this higher voltage throught the run curve till the charge is disapated. (till the 3V cut off).

MM: Temp decrease by.........?

BB: 3-5%.

MM: What else can be seen or have you experanced?

BB: This also conditions the pack to run to full discharge (not till dead, till proper full discharge) giving you longer run times. With higher voltage longer. I also see a longer life span. (on packs that are brought to full charge).

MM: Anything else I need to know, you are aware that I now have to start doing this to my race packs? Well my new packs at any rate wont help my old ones.

BB: Nope gotta run call you later.


THE END

Trickpatrick
01-05-2006, 10:29 PM
Thanks RURC.

This has got me thinking for a few days now about Lipos.
I have raced on and off for years and could chat about Nicads and Nmh all day with you but Lipos are a new deal for me.

So for the sake of argument er disscusion.

This is what I have done.
I bought 3 900mh 3cell packs two race with.
I liked that they would fit on one side of the 8.
And the run time was plenty long for 5 or 6min heats and mains.
They last for 11 mins.

Then I began to see here that maybe they wernt good enough amp draw wise.

But heres the thing.

They are way to fast. I love them and cant imagine why I would need more out of them I can only full throtlle for a couple seconds on the track.
almost everyone using lipos in half 8's here are using these and no one is complaining that I have heard.

What does everyone think about your LIpo's?? in general for a Half 8 in paticular for racing??

bermbuster
01-05-2006, 10:47 PM
I havent made the leap to lipos yet. In my research I was leaning towards Apogee packs based on good research and seeing some national caliber racers using them with great results. I even emailed Bill with questions which he graciously answered. Thanks for digging a little deeper with even more quality information being relayed and tested. :)

RURC
01-06-2006, 11:32 AM
LoPos are an enigma wraped in a quandry and encased in a question. The deeper I go into these things the more I uncover as to their abilities and quarks.

When I say that you meed more maH in a pack I say this from the point of view that I learned working on several European racing teams. Always prepare for the unexpected and utlize the best information to your advantage, espessally if the rule book dosent mention it. That being said the best 900 maH battery I know of dose 12.5 "C" (remember "C" is the rate of discharge you can acheive to the cutoff point, plus rufly 5%, measured in a % of the total capasity). This gives you a discharge rate of 11.25 amps. Even if you found one that dose 20 "C" that is 18 amps. This is fairly weak when you can easily pull 25 amps a lot and absolute peaks do exceed 100 amps (these tests were done by Castle Creations on a Mini T the numbers were given to me personally by Shawn Palmer). I try to not push the envelope like that. I want to be positive that my packs can easily handle the 25 to 50 amps that is seen routinely in these cars. Keep in mind that the H8 is significantly heaver than the Mini T or the RC18T. This makes the current draw even worse in the H8. Any pack I put my name on or reccomend I have personally put through the ringer. That is why I insist that if your packs (not just you anybody) are not able to handle 28 amps continous or more you are living in a zone that can be dangerous. The reason you are, most likely, getting by with them is the limited time you are running them.

The packs you mention I do not use and would not use. These are (if they are 20 "C") not able to meet even the low rateing of the Mamba or the Tekin which is 25 amps continous. Right now in my personal H8's I have one with LiIon in it that fit in the factory locations. My LiPo H8 has the battery on top of the top chassis plate with the radio and speed control where the batteries go. I dont really like this because my CG has risen 4.6mm. This will soon be fixed. I have just found a LiPo that I like and will fit in the factory locations. My test packs will arrive before the 20th. These will be 30 amp continous and 42 peak for 10 seconds. The peak before bursting tests will be done by me here in my laboratory (LOL). We really do call this place Area 52, one step past Area 51 (I dont know Randal Stevens). This is why I have not released a LiPo for the H8. Sometimes paitence and perfection can be rope that you hang yourself with. My LiIon set up runs for about 28 to 33 minutes and my LiPo set up runs for almost 45 minutes. This is at the track practice. I have not given any of the packs I use in my H8s. I dont fully trust the LiIon and I am not happy with the location of the LiPo. The LiPo is not mine I bought them they are Apogee packs. Now some people have copied my LiPo set up and they have not complained to me. But it is not the hot ticket as far as I am concerned.

The reason you think your packs are too fast is because LiPo behave almost like a capasitor (sp), they dump their load fast. This is almost the opposit of Nickle bases batteries., which is what everyone has been used to.

gopher
01-06-2006, 03:05 PM
I just wish chargers didn't cost so much, or that they would also include an AC input as well. I could run off of my car battery I guess, but hate to keep charging that up.

oh well... guess I will figure something out. I think I might go with a cheapo nimh peak charger for now :(

RURC
01-06-2006, 03:28 PM
I just wish chargers didn't cost so much, or that they would also include an AC input as well. I could run off of my car battery I guess, but hate to keep charging that up.

oh well... guess I will figure something out. I think I might go with a cheapo nimh peak charger for now :(


When you add the cost of an 110 v power supply you add to the cost. You should not charge any of these in your house. Look the MKII is a real good charger. It will do a good job for you in all but the most high end applications. If yo are bashing or even racing for fun you will do great with this set up. If you are very serious in your racing, or just need the absolute top line you will want something else. I have been useing the MKII for almost 3 years now and I just found out its limitations. For me, in what I do, I need more. But this might be just the thing for you. If you are not hard core, buy it. Remember even if you go LiPo this thing will easily allow you to blow by any nickle based system even with the MKII. You will get great run times and superior performance. Go buy the MKII. This is not a request it is an order.

gopher
01-06-2006, 03:30 PM
lol, sir yes sir ;)

there is a trade show coming in a few weeks. I will wait to see if anyone has one there :)

bermbuster
01-06-2006, 04:02 PM
Hey gopher,
Just remember you get what you pay for.......It may seem expensive now but go the cheapo route and have one problem and the better equipment will have been paid for. In the end you will probably buy the better equipment as well.
berm

gopher
01-06-2006, 04:47 PM
ya, that is one thing I am trying to consider... mkii for around $50 shipped and around $25 for a battery... that isnt too bad. I think I will just stay away from lipo for awhile still :)

I am just into bashing really. now I need to ask how people feel about bashing the h8 st :) wondering if it would be better to stick to less expensive rc to bash :) (18t or such)

RURC
01-06-2006, 05:17 PM
BASH IT

You will end up spending the same ammount on an inferior product in the long run. Might as well buy a strong a realiable car that has the potential to be a real contender. Besides the radio that comes with the H8 is far better than any of the other minis I have seen and touched. I have mini t's and rc18t's and schumacher atech's also I have played with the venditta (crap in my humble opinion), messed up an minizilla and used the xray. If you want a mini then this is the hot setup to me. It is extreemily adjustable and expandable, strong and reliable. All in all a very good package.

gopher
01-06-2006, 06:53 PM
ya, the only thing I liked about the vendetta was tha aluminum upgrades that came stock. That and the likely hood of my lhs carrying parts :)

really not sure what I am going to do as of yet... will sit on the $$ and see what deals might arrive in the future :) ... very NEAR future that is... lol